NZ History

[for our kids]

.Regards All

It has always been acknowledged that the final draft of the Treaty of Waitangi had been lost. That was until a document now known as the Littlewood document turned up in 1989. I was very sceptical when first skipping through the evidence, but now I have read it many times and read the recently published book that can be read online at http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/OrderBook.html ,if I were to ever have the opportunity to be one of those well paid judges and have to review the facts in a civil case as to the establishment of probability, I would have to go for the overwhelming evidence and judge it to be "the final draft of the Treaty of Waitangi."

I would also judge that at the very least there is a number of people who deserve chastising for some very dubious behaviour that is very alarming to know has taken place in our so-called "ideal Democracy."

Look forward to hearing the views of the many amazingly knowledgeable and civil participants of this forum, that if these discussions could be encouraged in the mainstream, this country would be a better place for it.

[Peter Boston]

My understanding is that it's a 'back copy' of the Maori version done by Busby for Clendon. Anyway, there is a signed English version of the Treaty, and the Maori version holds precedence under international law.

[for our kids]

Regards Peter

I disagree on the back copy theory as there is just to much evidence to suggest otherwise and we all know the circumstances surrounding the signing of an English version, due to it being used because they ran out of room on the Maori version, thus used a draft of the English version as storage, as it was the only other version of either language they had remaining in there possession at the time.

I am well aware of the international law principles of Contra Preferentum. I am also well aware of the constitutional milestones in this country and the processes of the justice system. Due to the conventions of proviso and precedence of the higher court it is essential that any judicial review be based upon the most accurate information.

The Waitangi Treaty Tribunal and the courts have thus far generally interpreted the facts to the relevance of both texts and in more recent times the widely referred to, undefined, "principles of the treaty of Waitangi" There have been instances where claimants have used articles from both text's to best suit their own ends. If the Littlewood document is the document from which both text's were spawned, and can better assist to clarify the intent, it must be recognised for its importance to accurate process.

I have stated over and over again, I am well aware of the unethical so called "enterprising" elements within my ancestors that undeniably conspired to remove land or control of land from Maori to re-sell or use for capital gain, today those same elements are within every sector of society and are doing the same thing to the larger number of good people within every race and culture in this country.

I have no qualms about redressing as much of a capital base as we can too the genuine claimants, but we must not lose sight of the horse we now all ride.

Successive governments and elements within the public service sector have tried to coerce by manipulation, the un-researched deniers, into paying Maori compensation out of some sort of inherited guilt, by presenting a sanitised version of history that portrays that Maori have always been gods gift to each other and the planet. This attempt to create an environment of inherited guilt on the Pakeha side has also had the effect of young Maori being susceptible to the separatist views of the more radical among Maori who tell them they have a massive moral high ground.

The society destroying tag team of Labour and National have dug themselves a hole so deep, they now fear the truth ever coming out, because in this world were modern accountants have conned our representatives into thinking money is worth more than life itself, these two now put retaining power as more important than the well being of society as a whole.

Just stop to think for a minute who is sitting on the highest piles of money by playing the un-researched, sometimes ignorant wider population off against each other, who? politicians and most every person in the justice system, of any race and culture. Its a scenario repeated over and over again all around the world, unethical elements sitting on 24 carrot gold toilets, thinking up ways of getting those that they are pilfering to blame someone else for the impact that they themselves are having upon their lives.

[for our kids]

Regards,

I was really looking forward to hearing from the people who took part in the Celtics in NZ? discussion, their views on the Littlewood treaty document, as those individuals quite clearly know a lot of the very short history of this youngest of countries.

As the youngest country it would be great if we could take the lessons of history that has gone before us in other countries, learn from their failings and improve upon them instead of following them down the plug hole like brain dead innovativeless morons. If we are to achieve this, important topics need to openly discussed by passionate individuals who have taken the time to study our short history in full. I believe those that make that effort would have at least one thing in common, the desire to see our society succeed as a whole, creating long term peace and stability.

[tjh]

This draft, or whatever it is, of the treaty is of limited usefulness in the modern treaty process. Its very obscurity means that it has had no impact on the way issues around the treaty have played out since 1840. Perhaps it clarifies intent to a certain, limited extent (although study of colonial office documents, missionary papers etc. are perhaps valuable for clarifying the context of the treaty) but one document that only a couple of people saw is of little usefulness in modern day treaty discussions, as far as I can see. Certainly people interpret the treaty in different ways (everyone who reads anything does that!) - I cannot see this adding significantly to that process or creating a new, 'better' interpretation.

Regards